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 Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence

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Hound Dog
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PostSubject: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sat 28 May 2011, 11:45

There is a lengthy and, in my opinion, highly interesting article in the May 25th edition of The Nation that I commend to all members entitled The Monster and Monterrey: The Politics and Cartels of Mexico´s Drug War. The article is a fairly comprehensive summary of how events over many years led to today´s situation that is rapidly engulfing much of Mexico. You probably need to subscribe to The Nation´s newsletter to read it but it´s free and the article makes the subscription worthwhile.

I can tell you having just returned from Chiapas to Lake Chapala after our annual winter residency in that region, that the situation along the Chiapas/Guatemala border and within large areas abutting that border is getting worse and, it seems to me, reaching a level in Southern Mexico and Northern Guatemala that´s a bit disconcerting to say the least.


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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sat 28 May 2011, 12:10

In case you would like to cut and paste a little snippet of that article along with a link I think that would be allowable. I usually don't go out searching for those things blindly, but if I saw an interesting tidbit it may just prompt me to sign-up to see more.

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sat 28 May 2011, 18:51

Peter wrote:
In case you would like to cut and paste a little snippet of that article along with a link I think that would be allowable. I usually don't go out searching for those things blindly, but if I saw an interesting tidbit it may just prompt me to sign-up to see more.

Anyone with the nom de internet of Hound Dog is perhaps of somewhat limited technological prowess so forget guidance on links. Simply punch in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and read this fascinating article. If you live or plan to live anywhere in Mexico, it is most insightful and compelling. You never know when you will catch a stray bullet or frag from a carelessly tossed fragmentation grenade.
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sat 28 May 2011, 20:48

Hound Dog wrote:
Peter wrote:
In case you would like to cut and paste a little snippet of that article along with a link I think that would be allowable. I usually don't go out searching for those things blindly, but if I saw an interesting tidbit it may just prompt me to sign-up to see more.

Anyone with the nom de internet of Hound Dog is perhaps of somewhat limited technological prowess so forget guidance on links. Simply punch in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and read this fascinating article. If you live or plan to live anywhere in Mexico, it is most insightful and compelling. You never know when you will catch a stray bullet or frag from a carelessly tossed fragmentation grenade.

Just to make life easier for folks like you and me, on this board if you type in the characters correctly that will make a link then it automatically appears here as a hot link. Well done!

Advance course in Cut and Paste for advanced students that know how to highlight text: When text is highlighted press "ctrl" and "c" simultaneously to put the highlighted text into memory. Then place the text cursor who you would like the highlighted to appear then simultaneously press "ctrl" and "v" to place the text.

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sun 29 May 2011, 02:07

The article is interesting indeed, Dawg. Here's the exact link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sun 29 May 2011, 08:57

Very interesting article, thanks Dawg. Seems to be giving a fairly accurate and unbiased look at what is going on with the Drug War and law enforcement scenario in Mexico. It should help anyone reading it to understand the bigger picture.

When the do-gooders start poking and prodding at things it de-stabilizes a balance that existed previously. Those folks may pat themselves on the back for making a couple arrests and making some headlines but they make no improvement in the quality of life for the people they are de-stabilizing. Some most likely irreparable damage has been done and there be years pass before some of this can be brought back under control. That matters little to the foreign policy-makers that would like to further their worldwide prohibition agenda.

First rules of prohibition are that it empowers a criminal element and creates corruption of the "good" forces, then soon no one knows who the enemy is any longer, all sides are to be suspect. The problems it creates for everyone else, the common folk who are not involved in the enterprise suffer, but that matters little if at all to those who are stuffing their pockets. Prohibition artificially escalates prices on the prohibited goods, skyrockets them out of all proportion and makes it a profitable enterprise for both sides of the playfield while bringing in all the non-players into the stadium to pay the admission price at the gate and pay concessionaires prices during the event on everything else they need.

The drugs that under prohibition policy are ounce for ounce more valuable than gold would be almost worthless in a free and open market. The allure of fast profits beckons forth many people into the world of criminal enterprise. It damages the communities that adopt the policy. Prohibition always demands the moral high-roads but takes societies that embrace it down in a rapid tail-spin. Crash and burn is its ultimate scenario. It never stops with solely the prohibited substance but introduces more crime and varieties of crime into the society while diminishing respect for law and order from the regular channels. Typically it leaves the good members of society to fend for themselves and become their own law, that or live with lawlessness that upholds protects the criminal.

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The narcomantas, as these public communiqués of the cartels are known, presaged a horrific explosion of violence in Monterrey, a city of 4 million people in northeastern Mexico and the country’s financial capital. In the months that followed, students would be gunned down at the gate of the city’s elite university. A mayor would be abducted, tortured and murdered. City squares, police stations and even the US consulate would be attacked with grenades. Blockades controlled by masked gunmen would paralyze the city for days on end. At the root of this violence was a turf war between the authors of the narcomantas, the Zetas, and their former ally the Gulf Cartel.

It was the kind of violence one had come to expect in places like Ciudad Juárez or Tijuana—border cities that have long served as trafficking hubs to the United States. But how could thriving Monterrey, the “Sultan of the North,” which only years earlier had been deemed one of the safest cities in Latin America, descend so quickly into chaos? If it could happen here, was anywhere in Mexico safe for long?

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Last September, residents in the small town of Ascensión, Chihuahua, population 8,000, caught five alleged kidnappers as they were attempting to abduct a 17-year-old girl. A mob of some 400 residents surrounded two of the men and beat them ferociously. As the mob prepared to burn them alive, federal police intervened, extricating the suspected kidnappers and loading them into a police car. But the mob counterattacked, surrounding the car and wrenching the driver from the front seat, all the while preventing police and soldiers from rescuing the alleged kidnappers. The two men bled to death, handcuffed in the back seat.

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PostSubject: Thanks for the Nation Article Post   Sun 29 May 2011, 11:20

Married to a lovely woman with an extended family in many parts of Mexico, the article captures a bit of what many of our family members have seen or experienced first-hand as a result of this conflict. Indeed as an example, Peter, our love of the beach is now tempered by concern for safety since a nephew was threatened while returning to Uruapan on the cuota. I am aggrieved and angered by this. To not be able to move at will, to be unconcerned for my personal freedoms, to be fearful for my wife and our safety, even should the threat be only from a stray bullet, a mistaken identity or simply incidental since drugs have no personal value to us and we do not seek to acquire nor use same... All these emotions dim the beauty surrounding us, and not just in Michoacán, but in most of the areas of Mexico where the family members are attempting to live their lives.

Will legalizing drugs remove this threat? A part of the threat yes, however, the repeal of liquor prohibition only directed the efforts of the US criminal groups into those same avenues of enterprise as pointed out in the article:

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Mexico’s cartels were evolving from national drug trafficking organizations to transnational organized crime syndicates. They diversified the drugs they traded (for instance, their production of methamphetamines increased) and branched out into other illicit activities, including extortion, kidnapping and human trafficking.

Here it is a beautiful, sunny, peaceful Sunday morning and I regret stewing over these matters about which I can have very little impact, and mourn the concern that prompts me to become involved. I'm going to treat my neighbor as I hope he would treat me and look forward to wiser folks' success in the solution of these issues. Thank you for making this board and information link available.

¡Viva México!
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sun 29 May 2011, 13:59

Thanks for your comments on this matter, it is an issue that is having a greater and greater impact on our lives and our ability to move about and enjoy the beautiful Mexican countryside. I have moved this topic into the General Discussions Forums area so it can receive a more proper airing-out. Many topics rightfully start in the Bienvenidos a Todos area as a starting point but when they gain traction as a topic for discussion I will move them as needed. The topic title remains in Bienvenidos so it can be located but the discussion is automatically redirected here.

Having grown up in the 60's drug culture of coastal California I have witnessed this issue evolve from the days of legal LSD into Nixon's War on Drugs, Nancy's cavalier Just Say No response and onto where we are today with it. I have seen many lives effected by it all andwatched a growing war machine develop and on into a quasi-legalized medical marijuana industry that has been approved by many of the US states that is acknowledged by but not condoned by the US federal government. There remains enough "illegalities" in that US system to keep the prices artificially high and lucrative, enough legal instability remaining to keep the industry off-balance and subject to the whims of the administrations and individual administrators so that true progress along those lines cannot be resolved. I get the idea that that instability is desireable to those running this show. It remains an economic cash cow to the power players who wish to continue milking it. It is not for slaughter.

Although various recreational drugs have been fashionable over these past four decades of the Drug War pot/marijuana/cannabis (they are all names for the same substance) has been the mainstay. Attempts have successfully been made to make other substances fashionable but they only remain so for a time. These other substances experience a trendy celebrity life and become a fad then fade away as the public discovers their vulnerability, their use then becomes negligible in the grander economic scheme. For instance, cocaine is nowhere near as popular today as in the 80's. Pot, however, remains a popular mainstay and is estimated to make up more than 80% of the Mexican cartel revenue - most of it from sales to the US market - even though recent years have seen the industry branch off into other substances. Blame can hardly be laid entirely on Mexico for having such a drug-hungry nation at its northern border.

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More than 60 percent of the cartels' revenue -- $8.6 billion out of $13.8 billion in 2006 -- came from U.S. marijuana sales, according to the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy.

Recreational drug use is a very popular US pasttime with 80% of its adult population indulging - 80% is the figure used by the US Dept. of Health and Human Services. Actually though that is the figures used for only one drug, America's most popular recreational drug, but for the sake of argument we will assume all users of the other entered through this same gateway or at least used that passageway into the world of recreational drug use. To assume otherwise we would have to up those figures and admit that it is somewhat less than 20% of the US adult population who were lifetime abstainers. Recreational drug use is more than just a pasttime it is a way of life for many, a tradition, and a huge industry. The way into this life is more than a mere gateway it is a superhighway with flashing neon lights at its entryway with promises of perks and freebies, entertainment and clowns, and free balloons for the kiddies. All are welcome down this path, and moreover they are encouraged from the time they are children to enter that path. Afterall, that is how we show we are grown-up, the we have come of age to take these indulgences. What child does not look forward to the time when they can freely drink what daddy is drinking?

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Alcohol Drinking Status (Tables 26,27)
• Overall, 52% of adults 18 years of age and over were current regular drinkers, 13% were current infrequent drinkers, 6% were former regular drinkers, 9% were former infrequent drinkers, and 20% were lifetime abstainers.

It is all a game. It is a game of economics that is so huge and multi-layered we cannot begin to fathom the opportunities that are offered in this game that can be played and won or lost from either side of the legal equation. There are now long-term pot users so what the up and downsides are no longer are a mystery. It was first thought pot may be considered rather benign but now we know it contains many benefits that other industries would rather keep us from exploring. Cannabis is not just a drug but it comes along with its own industry. The drug aspect is just scratching the surface of the benefits that could be gained by it as a textile, a food source, an energy source, and is now know to have curative and anti-carcinogenic properties as well. It would literally send some old established businesses to the scrap pile if the doorway were allowed to be opened to just its industrial uses. For those fatcats that have been pocketing loot for decades for their inferior products marijuana is a menace that must be eradicated at all costs.

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The Emperor Wears No Clothes By Jack Herer

Fiber & Pulp Paper
Until 1883, from 75-90% of all paper in the world was made with cannabis hemp fiber including that for books, Bibles, maps, paper money, stocks and bonds, newspapers, etc. The Gutenberg Bible (in the 15th century); Pantagruel and the Herb pantagruelion, Rabelais (16th century); King James Bible (17th century); Thomas Paine’s pamphlets, The Rights of Man, Common Sense, The Age of Reason (18th century); the works of Fitz Hugh Ludlow, Mark Twain, Victor Hugo, Alexander Dumas; Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland (19th century); and just about everything else was printed on hemp paper.

Food Oils & Protein
Hempseed was regularly used in porridge, soups, and gruels by virtually all the people of the world up until this century. Monks were required to eat hempseed dishes three times a day, to weave their clothes with it and to print their Bibles on paper made with its fiber.

Medicine
From 1842 through the 1890s, extremely strong marijuana (then known as cannabis extractums) and hashish extracts, tinctures and elixirs were routinely the second and third most-used medicines in America for humans (from birth, through childhood, to old age) and in veterinary medicine until the 1920s and longer. (See Chapter 6 on “Medicine,” and Chapter 13 on the “19th Century.”)

Queen Victoria used cannabis resins for her menstrual cramps and PMS. Her reign (1837- 1901) paralleled the enormous growth of the use of Indian cannabis medicine.

Lighting Oil
Hempseed oil lit the lamps of the legendary Aladdin, Abraham the prophet, and in real life, Abraham Lincoln.It was the brightest lamp oil.

Hempseed oil for lamps was replaced by petroleum, kerosene, etc., after the 1859 Pennsylvania oil discovery and John D. Rockefeller’s 1870-on national petroleum stewardship. (See Chapter 9 on “Economics.”) In fact, the celebrated botanist Luther Burbank stated, “The seed [of cannabis] is prized in other countries for its oil, and its neglect here illustrates the same wasteful use of our agricultural resources.”

Paints & Varnishes
For thousands of years, virtually all good paints and varnishes were made with hempseed oil and/or linseed oil.

For instance, in 1935 alone, 116 million pounds (58,000 tons*) of hempseed were used in America just for paint and varnish. The hemp drying oil business went principally to DuPont petro-chemicals.

Rope, Twine & Cordage
Virtually every city and town (from time out of mind) in the world had an industry making hemp rope.6 Russia, however, was the world’s largest producer and best-quality manufacturer, supplying 80% of the Western world’s hemp from 1640 until 1940

Textiles & Fabrics
Until the 1880s in America (and until the 20th century in most of the rest of the world), 80% of all textiles and fabrics used for clothing, tents, bed sheets and linens,* rugs, drapes, quilts, towels, diapers, etc., and even our flag, “Old Glory,” were principally made from fibers of cannabis.

For hundreds, if not thousands of years (until the 1830s), Ireland made the finest linens and Italy made the world’s finest cloth for clothing with hemp.

Building Materials & Housing
Because one acre of hemp produces as much cellulose fiber pulp as 4.1 acres of trees,* hemp is the perfect material to replace trees for pressed board, particle board and for concrete construction molds

Smoking, Leisure & Creativity
The American Declaration of Independence recognizes the “inalienable rights” of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Subsequent court decisions have inferred the rights to privacy and choice from this, the U.S. Constitution and its Amendments.

Many artists and writers have used cannabis for creative stimulation, from the writers of the world’s religious masterpieces to our most irreverent satirists. These include Lewis Carroll and his hookah-smoking caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland, plus Victor Hugo and Alexander Dumas; such jazz greats as Louis Armstrong, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington and Gene Krupa; and the pattern continues right up to modern-day artists and musicians such as the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Eagles, the Doobie Brothers, Bob Marley, Jefferson Airplane, Willie Nelson, Buddy Rich, Country Joe & the Fish, Joe Walsh, David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Lola Falana, Hunter S. Thompson, Peter Tosh, the Grateful Dead, Cypress Hill, Sinead O’Connor, Black Crowes, Snoop Dogg, Los Marijuanos, etc. Of course, smoking marijuana only enhances creativity for some and not for others.

But throughout history, various prohibition and “temperance” groups have attempted and occasionally succeeded in banning the preferred relaxational substances of others, like alcohol, tobacco or cannabis.

Abraham Lincoln responded to this kind of repressive mentality in December, 1840, when he said “Prohibition/goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man’s appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.”


The above book excerpts are just a travel guide into the rabbit hole. It goes much deeper than that. Excavation continue round the clock, and it is government subsidized construction work. Much of Jack Herer's book is readable online at his website at the link provided. For anyone unfamiliar with it I would suggest you follow that link and have a look around.

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sun 29 May 2011, 22:30

While I might not have a problem with the concept of legalizing marijuana, the tendency to lump all drugs into the same basket just doesn't fly with me. Face fact, Mexico aka Cartels got into the business by growing and distributing marijuana. There is an inherent problem due to the bulk and the opportunity for detection. I do see a brief note that cocaine has less demand NOB because it was a "trendy drug". The fact of the matter is that cocaine, black tar heroin and meth is easier to transport due to less bulk and easier to justify because of the greater profit margins. There are conflicting reports as to what portion of the Cartels profits come from these three drugs but I would bet that it is well over 50%. There is no way that I can be convinced that heroin and meth shouldn't be categorized as dangerous drugs that cause far more harm than good!
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sun 29 May 2011, 23:31

cheenagringo wrote:
While I might not have a problem with the concept of legalizing marijuana, the tendency to lump all drugs into the same basket just doesn't fly with me. Face fact, Mexico aka Cartels got into the business by growing and distributing marijuana. There is an inherent problem due to the bulk and the opportunity for detection. I do see a brief note that cocaine has less demand NOB because it was a "trendy drug". The fact of the matter is that cocaine, black tar heroin and meth is easier to transport due to less bulk and easier to justify because of the greater profit margins. There are conflicting reports as to what portion of the Cartels profits come from these three drugs but I would bet that it is well over 50%. There is no way that I can be convinced that heroin and meth shouldn't be categorized as dangerous drugs that cause far more harm than good!

Bothers me too and have been seeing pot lumped right along with the rest of them. If the US fed were to conceded pot they would perhaps have a manageable drug war they would stand a chance of winning, one that would win the hearts of the people that presently resent the infringement. But giving it much thought over the years I feel that if a problem were to persist with other drugs after normalization of pot then the alternative ao across-the-board legalization is better tha the system now. Some of drugs are useful, even the "dangerous" ones.

As I am now a "senior citizen" by most standards I am concerned about the upcoming infirmities of old-age approaching. I want heroin and other opiates available to me on demand when I feel the need for them has arrived. I wish to be required nothing more than showing I was counseled by a physician about the use of these medicines, and regardless of his recommendation I want the free-will to choose to purchase and use them, or not. And if a time comes when I am riddled in pain day in and out and wish to fade off into oblivion with those drugs if that is my choice, I would like to do so without government interference. As I no longer live in the US I believe I have taken steps to reserve those options, among others.

I believe there are other useful drugs I wish to reserve option on as well, and will do so as I see fit. I believe if the US were to concede use of one particular benign and useful plant - and all its possible uses - they could have a drug policy that is manageable and serves the people. If the US wishes to make recreational drug use a thing of the past they would need to tear-down the institution, tradition, industry, and lifestyle they have built around the recreational use of alcohol.

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Sun 29 May 2011, 23:45

cheenagringo wrote:
While I might not have a problem with the concept of legalizing marijuana, the tendency to lump all drugs into the same basket just doesn't fly with me. Face fact, Mexico aka Cartels got into the business by growing and distributing marijuana. There is an inherent problem due to the bulk and the opportunity for detection. I do see a brief note that cocaine has less demand NOB because it was a "trendy drug". The fact of the matter is that cocaine, black tar heroin and meth is easier to transport due to less bulk and easier to justify because of the greater profit margins. There are conflicting reports as to what portion of the Cartels profits come from these three drugs but I would bet that it is well over 50%. There is no way that I can be convinced that heroin and meth shouldn't be categorized as dangerous drugs that cause far more harm than good!

I cited all my sources for any fantastic statements, citing the White House, the Centers for Disease Control, and so on. And you still dispute the numbers? True, YMMV.

Yup, coke was "trendy" in the 80's and has pretty much given way to meth users for that corner of the market. A different day a different drug. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Pot will remain a mainstay. But, KNOCK-KNOCK. Anyone home?!? Cannabis is more than just a drug. Sheeeesh, I spent a full page talking about the industrial uses of hemp. You weren't listening?

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 00:14

Hi guys.... Just a quick note here. A year or so ago, I read an interview in US media I believe, with the Mexican equivalent of the attorney general. He said that marijuana constituted about 50% of the Cartels' revenue. Reason being that they produced the marijuana, while were primarily delivery boys for the opium and the cocaine. Of course with the increased production of meth since then, who knows whether that is still the case. I do believe legalizing pot in the US would make a big dent in their revenue, however.

Of course we may as well hope Spider Man will be elected President of the USA. I don't think the political will to legalize pot is there in the US. It blew my mind that the referendum to legalize it went down to defeat in California! If you can't pass it there, where can you pass it?

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PostSubject: my 2 centavos   Mon 30 May 2011, 12:44

As was and, by some, continues to be said..."Don't Tread on Me!"---

I offer my opinion, yes we most all have one of those also...
I now am threatened in my personal choices and decisions by societies's (Canada, USA, and Mexico) rules and regulations to follow the social demands inherent to that authority... OK, but, once there existed a bundle of personal rights which was part and parcel of my own home and house. If Spideyman wants to smoke pot or shove cocaine in his orifices in his house, God Bless Him and may he understand his personal responsibility for his private actions. I do not believe our USA founding fathers intended the constitution to include mandatory support of Spidey's aforementioned choices. Should Spidey need and ask for assistance in changing his decision process, I would welcome his personal appeal to me, but would rebel at the concept of the newly revised USA Governmental Office of Reform, Rehabilitation and Alternatives to such relaxations spending mandated tax fees and charges for such actions.
As a kid in Minnesota, when a neighboring farmer's barn burned down, everyone helped rebuild it without FEMA or other gov't intervention. This was done gladly and reciprocated as needed in large part due to the attitude of personal responsibility for one's conduct, "Am I a good neighbor or not?"
I fear the failure of this sense of being responsible for my own actions in the face of the society where I live. I fear that our populace will abdicate that responsibility and seek "free" new barns mandatorily paid for by you and me.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help you! That, to me, is tromping all over my freedoms...!
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 17:21

Peter:

I think if you were to re-read my post, I do not believe that you will find that I disputed the numbers that you referenced. For each side of any discussion regarding the legalization of drugs, one can find figures or statistics to make a point. I happen to believe that it is one's choice to either favor or debate the legalization of drugs in much the same manner as one can make the choice to either use or not use. If one chooses to use in such a manner as to not affect or negatively impact the lives of others, then I have few problems with the idea. But, we all should probably admit that all too often drug use cannot hold to this premise primarily due to human frailty.

Going back to my bartender days, I remember the cardinal rule of no discussions about religion, politics or sex while drinking. Legalizing drugs is another such passionate issue!
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PostSubject: Sex while drinking...   Mon 30 May 2011, 17:31

Darn, can't we even talk about it a little bit, how great sex is while drinking that is??

Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 17:41

Sorry, I neglected to mention that the town where the bar was located had WAY TOO MANY loggers and commercial fishermen. Any discussion on sex generally turned into a discussion about who was doing what to their wives or girlfriends. Not Good!
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 17:42

cheenagringo wrote:
Peter:

I think if you were to re-read my post, I do not believe that you will find that I disputed the numbers that you referenced. For each side of any discussion regarding the legalization of drugs, one can find figures or statistics to make a point. I happen to believe that it is one's choice to either favor or debate the legalization of drugs in much the same manner as one can make the choice to either use or not use. If one chooses to use in such a manner as to not affect or negatively impact the lives of others, then I have few problems with the idea. But, we all should probably admit that all too often drug use cannot hold to this premise primarily due to human frailty.

Going back to my bartender days, I remember the cardinal rule of no discussions about religion, politics or sex while drinking. Legalizing drugs is another such passionate issue!


Something ironic about discussing drug-use or legalization in a bar.

The figures I used had little to do with the legalization issue except that they were the government's own figures themselves. I assumed it was above raproach quoting them.

Ironic you were a drug-dealer (bartender) with your stance on drugs. Oh well, there is that old tale about pushers not being users.

Kind of comes down to drug choice than drug use. Seems most of the "anti's" are drug users too.

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 17:45

Touche Peter!
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 18:13

Dave and Rosy wrote:
As was and, by some, continues to be said..."Don't Tread on Me!"---

- If Spideyman wants to smoke pot or shove cocaine in his orifices in his house, God Bless Him and may he understand his personal responsibility for his private actions. I do not believe our USA founding fathers intended the constitution to include mandatory support of Spidey's aforementioned choices. Should Spidey need and ask for assistance in changing his decision process, I would welcome his personal appeal to me, but would rebel at the concept of the newly revised USA Governmental Office of Reform, Rehabilitation and Alternatives to such relaxations spending mandated tax fees and charges for such actions.

Good thing them drunks never need rehab!


Quote :
I fear the failure of this sense of being responsible for my own actions in the face of the society where I live. I fear that our populace will abdicate that responsibility and seek "free" new barns mandatorily paid for by you and me.

I won't repeat myself.

Quote :
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you! That, to me, is tromping all over my freedoms...!

Umm... thanks. Love your Drug War. Prohibition is kind of like God's answer to everything, isn't it?


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PostSubject: Drug War   Mon 30 May 2011, 18:38

Heck, my drug war was fought before my time... Please pass the Jamesons or Tequila Añejo por favor...

And I wouldn't have cared nor do I now care what anybody drank or now drinks in their own privacy or publicly... I do, however, object to paying my taxes to support the "rehab..." for my ex and the innumerable others who fail to be responsible for their personal drinking choices and thus infringe on society's standards of public conduct. Same as I don't care what you choose privately (drug of choice), but DO object to the government using my paid in dollars to force your public behaviors into "acceptability"...

But, on the bright side, think of all the employed folks as a result of prohibitions... what would we do with them otherwise???

And so for Cheenagringo... perhaps that bar town was Neah Bay or Astoria? I had a little sportfishing boat in Ilwaco for many years... and remember well the mayhem of Buoy 10...
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 19:10

Dave and Rosy wrote:
Heck, my drug war was fought before my time... Please pass the Jamesons or Tequila Añejo por favor...

And I wouldn't have cared nor do I now care what anybody drank or now drinks in their own privacy or publicly... I do, however, object to paying my taxes to support the "rehab..." for my ex and the innumerable others who fail to be responsible for their personal drinking choices and thus infringe on society's standards of public conduct. Same as I don't care what you choose privately (drug of choice), but DO object to the government using my paid in dollars to force your public behaviors into "acceptability"...

But, on the bright side, think of all the employed folks as a result of prohibitions... what would we do with them otherwise???

And so for Cheenagringo... perhaps that bar town was Neah Bay or Astoria? I had a little sportfishing boat in Ilwaco for many years... and remember well the mayhem of Buoy 10...

Alcohol is not without its costs. The failed Drug War is a great cost to society, a "cure" that is much worse than the disease. What has it "fixed"? It has fixed violence and corruption firmly into the fabric of society.

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 19:19

Dave and Rosy wrote:

...using my paid in dollars to force your public behaviors into "acceptability"...

I would feel much more comfortable if alcohol consumption was also kept to the confines of one's own home. That's fair, no?

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 19:28

but do I have to watch you drink your beer solo when I come to visit?

Perhaps social boundaries should be zoned and comprehensively planned into drinking, drugging, abstaining areas replacing industrial, commercial, multi family etc...? That way us boozers'd all live together, the druggers next door, etc etc...?

There does exist measurement of condition (blow here please) and I've a wonderful tale accordingly when we get together next... which is intended to standardize responsible conduct... again, I'm from the gubbmint and here to help...

Well, salud y saludos

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PostSubject: Re: Interesting Article on Cartel Related Violence   Mon 30 May 2011, 19:46

Dave and Rosy wrote:


Perhaps social boundaries should be zoned and comprehensively planned into drinking, drugging, abstaining areas replacing industrial, commercial, multi family etc...? That way us boozers'd all live together, the druggers next door, etc etc...?

That is the theme I express in this struggle and in all my papers and writing on this and various subjects - community standards.

In no place in the world is pot "legal". There are a few places where it has been conditionally tolerated, but not legal. We should be widely using industrial hemp products, they are much superior to their counterparts, but that industry is a threat to other industries who now have a foothold because they were able to demonize hemp with a drug scare campaign and become established. Industrial hemp is the true "threat" behind banning the weed.

Sure, give me one country, one little place, anywhere in the world that will outright regularize hemp, one that would be permitted to do so, and I will move there. That cannot happen though, it would not be allowed, anywhere.

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